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Slack founder: Mental models for building products people love ft. Stewart Butterfield
Stewart Butterfield is the co-founder of Slack and Flickr, two of the most influential products in internet history. After selling Slack to Salesforce in one of tech’s biggest acquisitions, he’s been focused on family, philanthropy, and creative projects. In this rare podcast appearance, Stewart shares the product frameworks and leadership principles that most contributed to his success. From “utility curves” to “the owner’s delusion” to “hyper-realistic work-like activities,” his thoughts on craft, strategy, and leadership apply to anyone building products or leading teams.We discuss:1. Hyper-realistic work-like activities2. The owner’s delusion3. Utility curves4. “Don’t make me think”5. “We don’t sell saddles here”6. Tilting your umbrella7. When to pivot—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsMetronome—Monetization infrastructure for modern software companiesLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AI—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/slack-founder-stewart-butterfield—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178320649/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Stewart Butterfield:• X: https://x.com/stewart• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Stewart Butterfield(04:58) Stewart’s current life and reflections(06:44) Understanding utility curves(10:13) The concept of divine discontent(15:11) The importance of taste in product design(19:03) Tilting your umbrella(28:32) Balancing friction and comprehension(45:07) The value of constant dissatisfaction(47:06) Embracing continuous improvement(50:03) The complexity of making things work(54:27) Parkinson’s law and organizational growth(01:03:17) Hyper-realistic work-like activities(01:13:23) Advice on when to pivot(01:18:36) The importance of generosity in leadership(01:26:34) The owner’s delusion—Referenced:• Slack: https://slack.com• Flickr: https://www.flickr.com• Cal Henderson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamcal• Blok: https://blok.so• Brandon Velestuk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-velestuk-6018721b• Magic Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Link• Ticketmaster: https://www.ticketmaster.com• John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision• Patrick Collison on X: https://x.com/patrickc• Sundar Pichai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sundarpichai• Three Questions with Slack’s CEO: https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/11/21/170330/three-questions-with-slacks-ceo• Six Sigma: https://www.6sigma.us• What is kaizen and how does Toyota use it?: https://mag.toyota.co.uk/kaizen-toyota-production-system• John Collison’s post on X about passion projects: https://x.com/collision/status/1529452415346302976• Parkinson’s law: https://www.economist.com/news/1955/11/19/parkinsons-law• We Don’t Sell Saddles Here: https://medium.com/@stewart/we-dont-sell-saddles-here-4c59524d650d• Glitch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glitch_(video_game)• IRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRC• This will make you a better decision-maker | Annie Duke (author of “Thinking in Bets” and “Quit,” former pro poker player): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-better-decisions-annie-duke• The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva• Prisoner’s dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma• Stewart Little: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Little• Dharma and Greg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_%26_Greg• Stewart’s post on X referencing “the owner’s delusion”: https://x.com/stewart/status/1223286626991796224—Recommended books:• Principles: Life and Work: https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Life-Work-Ray-Dalio/dp/1501124021• Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress―and How to Bring It Back: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nothing-Works-Killed-Progress_and/dp/154170021X• Positioning: The Battle for Your Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Positioning-Battle-Your-Al-Ries/dp/0071373586• Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away: https://www.amazon.com/Quit-Power-Knowing-When-Walk/dp/0593422996—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
Latest Episodes
The Godmother of AI on jobs, robots & why world models are next | Dr. Fei-Fei Li
Dr. Fei-Fei Li is known as the “godmother of AI.” She’s been at the center of AI’s biggest breakthroughs for over two decades. She spearheaded ImageNet, the dataset that sparked the deep-learning revolution we’re living right now, served as Google Cloud’s Chief AI Scientist, directed Stanford’s Artificial Intelligence Lab, and co-founded Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered AI. In this conversation, Fei-Fei shares the rarely told history of how we got here—including the wild fact that just nine years ago, calling yourself an AI company was basically a death sentence.We discuss:1. How ImageNet helped spark the AI explosion we’re living through2. Why world models and spatial intelligence represent the next frontier in AI, beyond large language models3. Why Fei-Fei believes AI won’t replace humans but will require us to take responsibility for ourselves4. The surprising applications of Marble, from movie production to psychological research5. Why robotics faces unique challenges compared with language models and what’s needed to overcome them6. How to participate in AI regardless of your role—Brought to you by:Figma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas realJustworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidenceSinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers):https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/178223233/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Dr. Fei-Fei Li• X: https://x.com/drfeifei• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fei-fei-li-4541247• World Labs: https://www.worldlabs.ai—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dr. Fei-Fei Li(05:31) The evolution of AI(09:37) The birth of ImageNet(17:25) The rise of deep learning(23:53) The future of AI and AGI(29:51) Introduction to world models(40:45) The bitter lesson in AI and robotics(48:02) Introducing Marble, a revolutionary product(51:00) Applications and use cases of Marble(01:01:01) The founder’s journey and insights(01:10:05) Human-centered AI at Stanford(01:14:24) The role of AI in various professions(01:18:16) Conclusion and final thoughts—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-godmother-of-ai—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
“Dumbest idea I’ve heard” to $100M ARR: Inside the rise of Gamma | Grant Lee (CEO)
Grant Lee is the co-founder of Gamma, the AI-powered presentation tool that’s one of the hottest and most interesting AI startups in the world right now. They’re valued at over $2 billion, and they hit $100 million ARR in just over two years, with a lean team of just around 30 people. Unlike many fast-growing AI startups, Gamma has been profitable for most of its history, has not raised significant funding, and they built a massive business in a category most investors dismissed. In fact, one investor told Grant his idea was “the dumbest idea he had ever heard.”We discuss:• How Gamma found product-market fit by rethinking their onboarding• Their process for building a “word-of-mouth machine”• How they leveraged more than 1,000 micro-influencers instead of big names• Why focusing on the “first 30 seconds” transformed their business• Their approach to pricing that led to profitability within months• How Grant thinks about building a durable “GPT wrapper” business—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidenceMiro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Where to find Grant Lee:• X: https://x.com/thisisgrantlee• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantslee—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Grant Lee and Gamma(05:59) The founding story of Gamma(09:52) Achieving product-market fit(15:43) Self-awareness as a founder(17:17) The power of onboarding(20:41) The original insight that led to Gamma(22:42) Founder-led marketing and growth tactics(29:20) Sharing online(37:40) Getting to $100M ARR(41:19) Influencer marketing as a growth strategy(54:08) Virality is not an accident(58:30) Investing in brand before paid ads(01:02:04) Tips for getting started with performance marketing(01:04:49) Prototyping and user feedback(01:16:12) Adapting and moving quickly(01:19:21) The concept of GPT wrapper companies(01:22:16) Deep dive into workflow and model utilization(01:29:06) Pricing strategies(01:34:53) Hiring philosophy and practices(01:43:24) Betting big on high performers(01:45:03) Final thoughts and lightning round—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-50-people-built-a-profitable-ai-unicorn—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
"Sell the alpha, not the feature": The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel
Jen Abel is GM of Enterprise at State Affairs and co-founded Jellyfish, a consultancy that helps founders learn zero-to-one enterprise sales. She’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met on learning enterprise sales, and in this follow-up to our first chat two years ago (covering the zero to $1 million ARR founder-led sales phase), we focus on the skills founders need to learn to go from $1M to $10M ARR.We discuss:1. Why the “mid-market” doesn’t exist2. Why tier-one logos like Stripe and Tesla counterintuitively make the best early customers3. The dangers of pricing your product at $10K-$20K4. Why you need to vision-cast instead of problem-solve to win enterprise deals5. Why services are the fastest way to get your foot in the door with enterprises6. How to find and work with design partners7. When to hire your first salesperson and what profile to look for—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUsLovable—Build apps by simply chatting with AICoda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace—Where to find Jen Abel:• X: https://x.com/jjen_abel• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/earlystagesales• Website: https://www.jjellyfish.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Welcome back, Jen!(04:38) The myth of the mid-market(08:08) Targeting tier-one logos(10:50) Vision-casting vs. problem-selling(15:35) The importance of high ACVs(20:45) Don’t play the small business game with an enterprise company(25:09) Design partners: the double-edged sword(28:11) Finding the right company(36:55) Enterprise sales: the art of the deal(43:21) The problem with channel partnerships(44:41) Quick summary(50:24) Hiring the right enterprise salespeople(56:49) Structuring sales compensation(01:01:01) Building relationships in enterprise sales(01:02:07) The art of cold outreach(01:07:31) Outbound tooling and AI(01:14:08) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• The ultimate guide to founder-led sales | Jen Abel (co-founder of JJELLYFISH): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-founder-led-sales-jen-abel• Mario meme: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/missing-meme-led-me-woman-johann-van-tonder-im6df• Kathy Sierra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Sierra• Cursor: https://cursor.com• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Justin Lawson on X: https://x.com/jjustin_lawson• Stripe: https://stripe.com• Building product at Stripe: craft, metrics, and customer obsession | Jeff Weinstein (Product lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-product-at-stripe-jeff-weinstein• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next• Linear: https://linear.app• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu• Gemini: https://gemini.google.com• Microsoft Copilot: https://copilot.microsoft.com• How Palantir built the ultimate founder factory | Nabeel S. Qureshi (founder, writer, ex-Palantir): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-palantir-nabeel-qureshi• McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com• Deloitte: https://www.deloitte.com• Accenture: https://www.accenture.com• Building a world-class sales org | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-world-class-sales-org• Peter Dedene on X: https://x.com/peterdedene• Hang Huang on X: https://x.com/HH_HangHuang• Hugo Alves on X: https://x.com/Ugo_alves• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting• Clay: https://www.clay.com• Apollo: https://www.apollo.io• Jason Lemkin on X: https://x.com/jasonlk• Gavin Baker on X: https://x.com/GavinSBaker• Jason Cohen on X: https://x.com/asmartbear• Baywatch on Prime Video: https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Baywatch/0NU9YS8WWRNQO1NZD5DOQ3I8W6• Playground: https://www.tryplayground.com• ClassDojo: https://www.classdojo.com• Jason Lemkin’s post about Replit: https://x.com/jasonlk/status/1946069562723897802—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
The woman behind Canva shares how she built a $42B company from nothing | Melanie Perkins
Melanie Perkins is CEO and co-founder of Canva, currently valued at over $42 billion, generating over $3 billion in annual revenue, with more than 240 million monthly active users and, incredibly, eight consecutive years of profitability. But the journey was far from smooth. Melanie was rejected by over 100 investors during her first fundraising round, her team spent two years without being able to ship a new feature during a technical rewrite, and the company pivoted early from a yearbook publishing platform to become the design powerhouse it is today. Through it all, she maintained what she calls “column B” thinking: building toward a dream future rather than just using the bricks around you.We discuss:1. How “column B” thinking helped Melanie build Canva, by starting with an impossible vision rather than existing constraints2. The power of setting “crazy big goals”3. How Canva survived a painful two-year period without shipping any new features while rewriting their codebase4. How Melanie pushed through 100 investor rejections, and how she used each rejection to strengthen her pitch5. Canva’s “two-step plan”: build one of the world’s most valuable companies, then do the most good possible6. Melanie’s vision for 2050 and why she believes imagination is the first step toward a better world—Brought to you by:Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security. https://vanta.com/lennyStripe—Helping companies of all sizes grow revenue: https://stripe.com/Justworks—The all-in-one HR solution for managing your small business with confidence: https://www.justworks.com—Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-making-of-canva—My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/176082995/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation—Where to find Melanie Perkins:• X: https://x.com/melaniecanva• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Melanie Perkins and Canva(04:44) Building a “column B” company(06:36) Operationalizing big visions(13:13) Crazy big goals and celebrations(22:00) Challenges and setbacks in Canva’s journey(26:30) Fundraising and investor rejections(29:36) Leadership and growth lessons(34:38) Canva’s goal-driven structure(35:46) Balancing work and personal life(38:02) Community-driven product development(40:37) The two-step plan for global impact(45:04) Canva’s biggest launch yet(48:10) How Canva approaches product expansion(52:37) AI integration in Canva(53:56) AI corner(55:22) Melanie’s vision for 2050 and beyond(01:00:07) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Canva: https://www.canva.com/• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach• Building high-performing teams | Melissa Tan (Webflow, Dropbox, Canva): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-high-performing-teams-melissa• UserTesting: https://www.usertesting.com/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/• Calm: https://www.calm.com/• Gandhi’s quote about happiness: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/mahatma_gandhi_105593• Help us improve Canva: https://www.canva.com/help/get-in-touch/general-feedback/—Recommended books:• Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649/• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/• The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Moments-Certain-Experiences-Extraordinary/dp/1501147765• Designing the Obvious: A Common Sense Approach to Web and Mobile Application Design: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Obvious-Common-Approach-Application/dp/0321749855—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
How Block is becoming the most AI-native enterprise in the world | Dhanji R. Prasanna
Dhanji R. Prasanna is the chief technology officer at Block (formerly Square), where he’s managed more than 4,000 engineers over the past two years. Under his leadership, Block has become one of the most AI-native large companies in the world. Before becoming CTO, Dhanji wrote an “AI manifesto” to CEO Jack Dorsey that sparked a company-wide transformation (and his promotion to CTO).We discuss:1. How Block’s internal open-source agent, called Goose, is saving employees 8 to 10 hours weekly2. How the company measures AI productivity gains across technical and non-technical teams3. Which teams are benefiting most from AI (it’s not engineering)4. The boring organizational change that boosted productivity even more than AI tools5. Why code quality has almost nothing to do with product success6. How to drive AI adoption throughout an organization (hint: leadership needs to use the tools daily)7. Lessons from building Google Wave, Google+, and other failed products—Brought to you by:Sinch—Build messaging, email, and calling into your product: https://sinch.com/lennyFigma Make—A prompt-to-code tool for making ideas real: https://www.figma.com/lenny/Persona—A global leader in digital identity verification: https://withpersona.com/lenny—Where to find Dhanji R. Prasanna:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhanji/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Dhanji(05:26) The AI manifesto: convincing Jack Dorsey(07:33) Transforming into a more AI-native company(12:05) How engineering teams work differently today(15:24) Goose: Block’s open-source AI agent(20:18) Measuring AI productivity gains across teams(21:38) What Goose is and how it works(32:15) The future of AI in engineering and productivity(37:42) The importance of human taste(40:10) Building vs. buying software(44:08) How AI is changing hiring and team structure(53:45) The importance of using AI tools yourself before deploying them(55:13) How Goose helped solve a personal problem with receipts(58:01) What makes Goose unique(59:57) What Dhanji wishes he knew before becoming CTO(01:01:49) Counterintuitive lessons in product development(01:04:56) Why controlled chaos can be good for engineering teams(01:08:07) Core leadership lessons(01:13:36) Failure corner(01:15:50) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced:• Jack Dorsey on X: https://x.com/jack• Block: https://block.xyz/• Square: https://squareup.com/• Cash App: https://cash.app/• What is Conway’s Law?: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365-life-hacks/organization/what-is-conways-law#• Goose: https://github.com/block/goose• Gosling: https://github.com/block/goose-mobile• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Claude: https://claude.ai/• Anthropic co-founder on quitting OpenAI, AGI predictions, $100M talent wars, 20% unemployment, and the nightmare scenarios keeping him up at night | Ben Mann: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropic-co-founder-benjamin-mann• OpenAI: https://openai.com/• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai• Llama: https://www.llama.com/• Cursor: https://cursor.com/• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell• Top Gun: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/• Lenny’s vibe-coded Lovable app: https://gdoc-images-grab.lovable.app/• Afterpay: https://github.com/afterpay• Bitkey: https://bitkey.world/• Proto: https://github.com/proto-at-block• Brad Axen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradleyaxen/• Databricks: https://www.databricks.com/• Carl Sagan’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32952-if-you-wish-to-make-an-apple-pie-from-scratch• Google Wave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Wave• Google Video: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Video• Secret: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_(app)• Alien Earth on FX: https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/alien-earth• Slow Horses on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o• Fargo TV series on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Fargo-Season-1/dp/B09QGRGH6M• Steam Deck OLED display: https://www.steamdeck.com/en/oled• Doc Brown: https://backtothefuture.fandom.com/wiki/Emmett_Brown—Recommended books:• The Master and Margarita: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Margarita-Mikhail-Bulgakov/dp/0802130119• Tennyson Poems: https://www.amazon.com/Tennyson-Poems-Everymans-Library-Pocket/dp/1400041872/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com
